Curse

DDL · Nov 20, 2007, 04:44 PM // 16:44

It's also really nice to see the MONSTERS going "#$%#!!" for once. Especially in the middle of a critical spell.

See how THEY like it, etc etc.

Shanaeri Rynale · Nov 20, 2007, 04:46 PM // 16:46

Avarre's post up until Gwen was true, now it helps to perpetuate the stereotype, in my view although it contains some truth it now needs a revision and update to match todays reality. For example it's now not only the speed of killing that is important, but the percieved ease of that kill(hence the rise of the Ursan).

With mobs having fast attack speeds, high armor, resistance to elemetal attacks the role of an armor ignoring damage, shutdown class is increased not diminished. I see more opportunites for mesmers to shine in PvE now, than I did a year or so ago not less.

With respect few people play with multiple mesmers in a team to really see how efficient they can be. Most people will take along a token one or 2, but not use them to the maximum of their potential. They either turn them into FC nukers, farmers, rezmers, bonders or some other profession-a-like and not look at the synegies possible when you use 3 4 or even 5.

In general people get a blinkered view of the profession either with PvP blinkers or Holy trinity blinkers as witnessed by some of the comments I see here and in game. What people in general do(even experienced players) is not look beyond their experience and go along with the fotm thinking, be it in PvP or PvE.

The same issue is as it always has been is that by and large people will take the easiest route. Before Gwen it was the Tank Nuke Heal, now it's the Ursan. That is'nt a mesmer issue; but a people one.

Rule 1 of GW seems to be, If there is a cheap and lazy way to do things, most people will do it.

There is no such thing as an optimal mix of professions. There are so many variables that are context sensitive (such as player skill, build, the area, the spawn etc etc) that one cannot 100% simply say profession X is not as optimal as profession Y, one can only speak in generalties.

I kinda know the way this thread will go, as we've seen countless variations over the years and months. The only statement that is true here, is that if you enjoy playing it do it, if not no one is forcing you to go do something else.

Vinraith · Nov 20, 2007, 04:53 PM // 16:53

The only reason I don't have a mesmer is that my necro main uses mesmer secondary skills so often that it's not a new or different playing experience to have a mesmer primary for me.

Oh, and anyone that thinks heroes are always better interrupters than humans isn't paying much attention to what their heroes are interrupting. It's speed over priority, and in a lot of circumstances priority wins.

Chicken Ftw · Nov 20, 2007, 05:04 PM // 17:04

I don't see where adding more and more mesmers to a group makes taking the first more viable than taking someone of another profession. Shutdown/damage via hexes? Necromancer. Shutdown via interrupts? Ranger. Damage? Elementalist, warrior. If you can't name a role where a mesmer outperforms another class, I can't see the use in bringing one. It's not about laziness, it's about efficiency.

Painbringer · Nov 20, 2007, 05:10 PM // 17:10

I would love to see if the players that are successful with a Mesmer are only Solo PVE players. I am sure there many godly players out there that Do not PVP or Group up just for the reason that people have the Mesmer hate. You just need to read a few posts here to get that the disillusioned idea in your head. Many posts talk about damage output being the only use factor. What you do not see is the effects of stopping healing or stopping of foes damage output. The advantage of shutdown is undervalued IMO.

On purpose I ran all the campaigns with only Mesmer Skills and no secondary skills. I had no problem with any area. The experience I gained from playing this non typical style is priceless. Narrow vision is the death of creativity. Multiple classes are available to you in this game which means you have a NEW Guild Wars to play with each of them. Open your eyes to a new way to look at GW. Is there one way to do things????? Only if you think like the masses and succumb. 1000 of skill combos out there 1000 of possibilities.

Chicken Ftw · Nov 20, 2007, 05:13 PM // 17:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darksun

I can't understand why Rangers would ever be considered better at interrupting. their interrupts are slow as hell & do crap damage. It's nice that DS stops any actions, but it doesn't matter if you can't actually interrupt. Even the AI (which is impossibly fast) misses with Rangers. Mesmers never do and can do it for large chunks of dmg.

BHA says hi. Also, if you can't interrupt, you shouldn't be playing interrupter, no?

DéesseBrighid · Nov 20, 2007, 05:14 PM // 17:14

My personal opinion is that mesmers are the hardest class to play, but who knows, someone else might think they're easy. But if they're easy, why aren't there more of them?

Ctb · Nov 20, 2007, 05:24 PM // 17:24

Quote:

Also, if you can't interrupt, you shouldn't be playing interrupter, no?

His point is that a mesmer is superior to a ranger in interrupting, and he's right. Simple math: a 1/4 or 1/8 second cast time with an instantaneous hit on the target is objectively superior the time it takes to notch and fly an arrow, even with a speed increase. The mesmer can be dedicated to interrupting, the Ranger, not so much.

Like most other things the Ranger does, he does it best as a support character. He can interrupt, he can tank, he can spike, and he can degen, but all those things can be done better by other classes that can effectively dedicate themselves to those specializations. The Ranger rounds out the team by playing that support role and spreading his skills over a wider range of functions, which is the whole point of the Ranger.

Quote:

mesmers are the hardest class to play

Depends. You can usually toss together a pretty basic mesmer, jump into AB or RA and tear things apart without a whole lot of practice. The trouble is, if you just stack your skillbar with interrupts or degens and whatnot you'll have a hard time staying alive once you're targeted. Plus, energy management becomes a problem if you don't know how to effectively interrupt skills or apply and remove hexes.

In other words, you can just spam random crap all over and do all right, but to be really good with a mesmer, I think it does require substantially more practice than most other professions.

Esan · Nov 20, 2007, 05:26 PM // 17:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shanaeri Rynale

With mobs having fast attack speeds, high armor, resistance to elemetal attacks the role of an armor ignoring damage, shutdown class is increased not diminished. I see more opportunites for mesmers to shine in PvE now, than I did a year or so ago not less.

Rubbish and hogwash. Any build that does not use the increased attack speed in HM to kill foes faster is playing sub-optimally. Attackers should be neutralized with weakening and blindness, neither being a mesmer's forte. The only casters that truly need to be shut down are AoE nukers or the occasionaly dual monk group, and these are rare enough to be counted on one hand across all three campaigns and an expansion. Every other caster should be punished with SS, SV, and the occasional well-placed Pain Inverter.

Shutdown is for chumps.

arcady · Nov 20, 2007, 05:30 PM // 17:30

As a player of two mesmers, and someone who brings gwen along regularly with my other toons - Mesmer is -the- most powerful class in PvE.

Flat out it outperforms everything else.

But...

No one will believe you on this unless they know how to play a mesmer and know how to use their mesmer hero. And most people know neither.

Play of a mesmer is a little more complicated than other classes. That said I consider myself bad at it, and they still outperform my other toons - and I consider myself above average in several of those (I'm better than most people I meet on E, W, R, and Mo, not as good on D or Rt).

People assume the class is a lot harder than it is, and they assume that it is weak or impossible to play, so they don't try it.

I always try to invite mesmers into PUGs when I see them - knowing that they are the difference between a hard PUG and an easy PUG. But I hear a lot of people purposefully don't invite them, preferring Wa/Mo's and monks with all elementalist spells and some of the other madness I've seen in PUGs...

Antheus · Nov 20, 2007, 05:32 PM // 17:32

Quote:

Every other caster should be punished with SS, SV, and the occasional well-placed Pain Inverter.

Shutdown is for chumps.

GW:EN is full of mobs with hex removal.

I also fail to see why SS would be optimal against casters. It's great against physical attackers, but casters will be spamming their spells.

It's not until you shut them down that they start using regular attacks, when SS is most effective.

Pain inverter is also a somewhat poor comparison - one can also use Ursan.

Needless to say, obsflesh tank and 5 nukers will work really well for just about anything. Doesn't mean there aren't alternatives.

Quote:

Any build that does not use the increased attack speed in HM to kill foes faster is playing sub-optimally

How exactly does this negate mesmers?

Ctb · Nov 20, 2007, 05:37 PM // 17:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esan

Rubbish and hogwash. Any build that does not use the increased attack speed in HM to kill foes faster is playing sub-optimally. Attackers should be neutralized with weakening and blindness, neither being a mesmer's forte. The only casters that truly need to be shut down are AoE nukers or the occasionaly dual monk group, and these are rare enough to be counted on one hand across all three campaigns and an expansion. Every other caster should be punished with SS, SV, and the occasional well-placed Pain Inverter.

Shutdown is for chumps.

So, basically, you have no idea how a mesmer works at all. Is that what you're saying here? Because that's what you're conveying.

darkdreamr · Nov 20, 2007, 05:39 PM // 17:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

No. But I won't loose my time explaining in details why since you're rejecting Avarre's post so easily. In short, the best shutdown in PVE is the death status. You have to survive while killing the fastest way possible. Mesmer don't kill as fast as other synergised professions. "armor ignoring spike damage"? You need DPS in PVE, not spike. <long list of reasons mesmers are worse than other classes>

Yeah, it sucks how those mesmers really reduce your survivability. And don't do any damage. I don't mean this personally, but you're obviously someone who believes in grouping, tanking, nuking. you mention AoE necro hexes, spiteful spirit, and the need for DPS, not spike. Yeah, that's steamrolling, but it's slow steamrolling. Not to mention that all the necro hexes are antimelee save the elite soul leech, and the real threats in pve are casters generally. Well I'm telling you that I find it just as easy to spike/shut down the casters and let the rest of the enemies die to empathy/degen/the rest of my party. Of course you need survivability and healing, but with a mesmer around I find that my survivability goes up significantly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chicken Man

I don't see where adding more and more mesmers to a group makes taking the first more viable than taking someone of another profession. Shutdown/damage via hexes? Necromancer. Shutdown via interrupts? Ranger. Damage? Elementalist, warrior. If you can't name a role where a mesmer outperforms another class, I can't see the use in bringing one. It's not about laziness, it's about efficiency.

It's not about efficiency, it's about laziness. You think a warrior does more damage than a single empathy hex? Or a ranger can shut down a HM monk better than a mesmer can? Too many people learn this game from some pug groups that end up doing well and refuse to believe in any alternatives. It's a good thing some people have open minds or we would still be believing the world was flat and the center of the universe.

Chicken Ftw · Nov 20, 2007, 05:40 PM // 17:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcady

Mesmer is -the- most powerful class in PvE.

Examples? I hear a lot of "people just don't know how to use them", but never any explanations of how to use "the most powerful class for PvE". Here I was thinking it was paragon. <_<

Quote:

It's not about efficiency, it's about laziness. You think a warrior does more damage than a single empathy hex? Or a ranger can shut down a HM monk better than a mesmer can? Too many people learn this game from some pug groups that end up doing well and refuse to believe in any alternative

You think empathy does more damage than SS? Yes, I believe a dslasher will out-DPS empathy. You ever hear of BHA? Too many people don't know what they're talking about.

Mad King Corn · Nov 20, 2007, 05:42 PM // 17:42

I never had a hard time getting a group with my mesmer, in fact, there were times where a pug was actually looking for a mesmer. They rock in PVE, despite what others would have you believe.

Esan · Nov 20, 2007, 05:49 PM // 17:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antheus

GW:EN is full of mobs with hex removal.

Hex removal isn't an argument for mesmers over necromancers.

Quote:

I also fail to see why SS would be optimal against casters. It's great against physical attackers, but casters will be spamming their spells.

SS trigges on spells. In HM, most spells cast in less than a second. If they are spamming spells, then they are a good substitute for attacks, which are also around 1 a second. If they are not spamming spells, maybe because the spells have long recharges, then they will be attacking in the meantime.

Quote:

How exactly does this negate mesmers?

What do mesmers use to punish increased attack speed? Empathy? Pff. SS cleans the floor with Empathy. Spirit Shackles? Yeah, super, congrats on shutting down Power Attack. Visions of Regret? Maybe if every mob you met used adrenal skills, but I'd rather bring Expel Hexes or Mantra of Recovery. Spirit of Failure? The mob will be dead before it recharges, and Blurred Vision is almost 100% better. What outstanding tools do mesmers have to exploit IAS?

Yichi · Nov 20, 2007, 05:51 PM // 17:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esan

...Every other caster should be punished with SS, SV, and the occasional well-placed Pain Inverter...

Yes because SV works so well on someone casting a spell and not attacking...

Vinraith · Nov 20, 2007, 05:51 PM // 17:51

Why do people keep trying to compare SS and empathy? SS is an elite, of course it's better, but then you only get the one. This debate's focussed wrong anyway, not being a mesmer primary doesn't prevent you from bringing mesmer skills. The real question to my mind is why you'd bring fast casting over soul reaping for a hex caster. For interrupts fast casting is useful, sure, but for hexes isn't nearly infinite energy a lot more valuable?

Vinraith · Nov 20, 2007, 05:52 PM // 17:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by MistressYichi

Yes because SV works so well on someone casting a spell and not attacking...

Actually yeah, it does.

For 5...17 seconds, whenever target foe attacks or casts a Spell on a creature with less Health, that foe loses 25...85 Health.

Yichi · Nov 20, 2007, 05:55 PM // 17:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vinraith

Actually yeah, it does.

For 5...17 seconds, whenever target foe attacks or casts a Spell on a creature with less Health, that foe loses 25...85 Health.

Which SV you talking about? I was refering to Sympathetic Visage, which does nothing to casters...

Guess I'm used to hearing it from the SS/SV nec lf 55...

(since we were talking about Mesmers, it was a natural reaction to a mesmer skill

)